Jay Ellis Says Goodbye to Lawrence — and Insecure

Insecure has taken Jay Ellis on quite the actor’s journey. The friendship between four Black women in Los Angeles is the focus of the HBO comedy, but Ellis’s character, Martin “Lawrence” Walker, has run his own gauntlet through its first four seasons. He’s been the adrift boyfriend, an awkward lothario, then finally found some personal and professional balance en route to becoming the man he always envisioned himself as. Now, as Insecure begins its fifth and final season this Sunday, Lawrence is about to embark on a new journey—fatherhood—just after he and ex-girlfriend Issa Dee (co-creator and star, Issa Rae), who is not the mother of his child, reconnected as better versions of themselves.

Lawrence has been a particularly divisive character since the beginning. To some men (infamously, jokingly, sometimes pathetically), he’s been the idol for their ups, downs, and wounded revenge arcs. To some women, he remains arguably the most dangerous type of man: the self-styled “Good Guy.” But as Insecure’s audience has grown with its characters, it’s reached more of a consensus regarding Lawrence: He has to grow all the way up now, because fatherhood has brought his extended childhood to a hard stop. In season five, he’s trying to long distance co-parent with his latest ex, Condola (Christina Elmore), after moving to San Francisco for a new job. It’s another scenario that, true to Insecure’s history, will likely prompt debates.

Although Insecure certainly leans into its status as Twitter discussion fodder, it still aims to be honest about the transition from one phase of adulthood to the next. To be frank, that process can be fucking chaotic at times. “It’s supposed to be a little messy,” Ellis, 39, says. “You’re supposed to stumble a little bit—that’s how you get to the other end.” And once again, Lawrence is amid a dilemma of his own creation.

Unflattering Lawrence circumstances notwithstanding, Insecure has opened numerous doors for Ellis. In addition to giving him his biggest role to date, it’s given him the opportunity to explore a new endeavor, as he earned a director’s credit during the show’s fourth season. “I just felt that a show that I loved working on was the place to try it,” he says. GQ spoke to Ellis about his last days as Lawrence, fatherhood, and working with Tom Cruise on the forthcoming Top Gun: Maverick.

How did you feel when you read the script and found out that Condola was pregnant?

Oh bruh, I was enraged. I was legitimately heartbroken….I felt like the Tyra Banks “We were all rooting for you!” meme. I was just so disgusted: with him, with her, with the situation. I was so mad. I remember being in that table read and I don’t even know if I said anything after. I might have just sat there. Normally, we all get up and everybody’s clapping, but I feel like I just sat there, despondent, for like five minutes afterwards. Just in shock.

Was it like when you found out that Issa cheated on Lawrence during the first season?

Yeah, it literally felt like Issa saying that she slept with ol’ boy. It was that moment all over again, and then all the emotions just start flying in behind it and you kind of lose yourself in it.

Season five jumps ahead a year after Lawrence finds out that he’s going to be a father right before he’s about to move to San Francisco. The scenario isn’t what he or Condola wanted, but it’s happening. Where is Lawrence at as a person when the new season picks up?

I think there’s a lot of conflict there; it’s complex, right? He clearly loves Issa and had this amazing night with her—and even in [season four] episode nine, which was directed by Kerry Washington, they’re in a good spot. They’re comfortable. They love who the other person has become and still have all of their history. I think Lawrence carries that into this season, like, “Damn, this is my soulmate and here I am in this situation where…am I gonna be involved with the baby? Am I asking her to potentially be a stepmom?” And she considered moving to San Francisco—and Issa loves L.A. more than anything. So just to know that this is a whole new part of the equation is so confusing. I feel like he doesn’t really have his footing when we meet him in season five and he’s trying to find solid ground.

I feel like it’s always something with Lawrence. Even now that he’s off the couch and his career is in a good place, it feels like right when he and Issa were about to be the couple that they—and some viewers—want them to be, something else happens.

We talked about this last year: Can you have it all? When his love life was good, his work life was horrible. When his work life was good, his romantic life was nonexistent. So to your point, does he have to sacrifice one to have the other? Or maybe you aren’t putting as much time into the other. Or maybe you think, wait, I can have both of these things, and then life throws you a curveball in the form of a baby. So again, it just feels like he’s trying to find his footing, because as soon as it feels like he has his feet on solid ground, the Earth sinks beneath him and he’s back to where he was.

You know that Insecure can drive people to take irrational positions—

That’s the most polite way you could put that [laughs].

But it does. People project onto these characters. What do you make of the resentment towards Condola for being “in the way” of Lawrence and Issa’s supposed happy ending? Because she didn’t impregnate herself.

It’s interesting, because I clearly think there are folks out there who see Condola as the one who’s stopping their happy ending or stopping this relationship they want to see. But at the end of the day, these are two adults who decided to lay down and do this. So it’s not on Condola; it’s not like she popped up like, “Aha, I’m not about to let y’all get back together!” She wasn’t maliciously plotting to get Lawrence caught up and break up this relationship, but I do think that the character, in some ways, serves as a placeholder for all the things that get in between two people. That could be another person, a kid, or having to move away for a job, but I think there’s something about the character that is this weird stand-in for: “There’s always something that gets in the way of love.” In this instance, it’s this person—even though the person doesn’t know. Condola’s just out here living her life.

Condola is almost the anti-Issa: She had her shit together, where Issa was still figuring it out. But in season five, you get a glimpse of her and Lawrence attempting to co-parent. Does that situation show a lot of the ways in which Lawrence still hasn’t matured? Because I believe he still has a very limited understanding of his emotions.

“Anti-Issa” is an interesting way to look at it. We always said Condola was the grown-up in the room. She’s the same age as all of us, but she’s the one who made us all realize: “Oh, we don’t have our shit together. We need to figure it out.” And I think that made Lawrence step it up in a completely different way. It made him step up career-wise, but I also think it made him step up in terms of his presentation, and I think it made him become a little bit more of an adult in their relationship with respect to how he treats women, communicates, and ends relationships. I think the same went for Issa: Seeing how on top of it Condola was made her realize she needed to be more on top of it.

You’re right, Lawrence is not aware of all of his emotions yet. He’s a little past the stage where dudes only know how to process anger and happiness, but he’s not fully into the stage of being full, 360-degrees, all emotions when necessary—and at the same time, still able to consider what another person might be going through. That’s what part of this season is about for him: Really understanding that, yes Lawrence, you had a vision and thought it was gonna go this way. But just because you thought about it doesn’t mean that you considered how someone else is planning to navigate a situation.

That’s a big part of what we see him go through: Is he going to force it or work with Condola and figure out how to co-parent in a healthy way? He is a dude who always wants to do right, but his concept of “doing right” all comes from his brain and he doesn’t necessarily communicate with the people he’s involved with about how they may be doing what they think is right in any given situation.

I think it’s safe to say that Lawrence was depressed during the first season and we saw how that affected his relationship with Issa. Lawrence’s experiences might have made it easier for some men to be vulnerable and discuss their emotions openly, but how do you feel about men asking or expecting women to put their own issues—many of which are caused by men—aside in order to support them?

I think this whole thing that is life is all about communication. For me, it’s about being secure in your insecurities, if you will. It’s about being comfortable with knowing that there are things you don’t know and someone else has a better perspective on. Hopefully, you can seek their perspective out and learn from them, and hopefully you can learn how to do things together. To ask someone to put their own life or feelings to the side is crazy, because ultimately what you’re doing is suppressing part of who that person is in order to make yourself better. It’s very narcissistic.

Part of what makes you better is being challenged, because you need to be better at being empathetic to what someone else is going through. I’m a big believer in “a rising tide raises all boats.” If you’re doing good, that’s only going to lead to me doing good. Us doing good together leads to the water level getting way higher, as opposed to just me doing good while you’re sacrificing everything. So again, I think that’s part of what Lawrence has to learn through all of this. Parenting isn’t just a one-way street.

I think one of the many reasons Lawrence is so polarizing is that he isn’t some comic book villain misogynist like, say, Future. He sees himself as “good” and surfaces as such, but that can potentially make him and other men like him more dangerous because the red flags aren’t as clear. He might not even be trying to do wrong, but he’ll stumble into it. Plenty of women will tell you that men like Lawrence are more prevalent and therefore dangerous for this reason, hence the contempt some of them have for him. How do you feel about that after playing him for five seasons?

All of the anger and scorn is justifiable. If you don’t feel that after watching this character, then I haven’t done my job. I think you need to be conflicted because, to your point, what makes him so polarizing is that he’s trying to do good. He’s not intentionally being malicious, he just doesn’t know or isn’t vulnerable enough to ask the people around him about the direction he should be taking or how he should handle a situation. He isn’t out here like, “Oh, I’m ‘bout to wreck all these women’s lives!” He’s like, “Yo, I’m trying to be a good dude, but I’m also looking out for me. I think this is how this is supposed to go, so I’m gonna do it” without realizing that, at times, that has ripple effects in other places.

So yeah, I’m sure there’s dudes out there like that, but I think if you look at the heart of the characters, that’s part of why he’s so polarizing. I think so many people can see the heart of the character, and I think in his heart, he’s trying to do better. He’s trying to do the right thing and he wants to be with this woman. He realized being a playboy wasn’t for him. He realized there were things out there that he thought he should be doing that were not for him. He’s a serial monogamist: He wants to be in relationships, he wants to be in love. So I think that if you really boil it down to where his heart lies, you realize there’s good in him. So then it becomes: Okay, stop making these dumb ass decisions. Let’s get you on the right road to being a good person so you’re not hurting other people.

That speaks to the hazard of men being emotionally immature past a certain age. Which leads me to the #LawrenceHive. I know it’s supposed to be a joke, especially at this point, but there are dudes who have made Lawrence the avatar for their struggles because they identify with him so closely and will defend him at every turn—which I think is pretty embarrassing, to be painfully honest. If you look at Lawrence and see yourself, but don’t see the flaws or mistakes, I think you’re overdue for some introspection. How do you feel about the Hive and any blind defense of Lawrence’s actions at this juncture?

I don’t see it as much at this point, but I think we’ve all matured with these characters, right? I think this show has maybe helped some folks realize their own blind spots. So now, I feel like I’m more often approached by folks who are like, “In season one I was right there with you, but bro, you couldn’t have been a little bit smarter in season four? I understand that you ran it back, but why didn’t you wear a condom? We’d come so far, what are we doing?!” And I feel like that for all of these characters, but definitely for Lawrence. I think there has been some maturity with the Hive, the audience, and how this character moves throughout this world, but we all have blind spots. Even those of us who think we are locked in and in tune don’t see them all of the time, so I’m sure it’s plausible that there are folks out there who still blindly ride for Lawrence.

Do you still experience the polarity around Lawrence when you’re out in the real world?

It’s crazy: After episode eight of season four, Lawrence’s approval rating might have been at an all-time high—like, across the board. Women loved Lawrence, dudes loved Lawrence. But by the end of episodes nine and ten, his approval rating was at an all-time low. I don’t even think the Tasha moment was this low. I feel like it went from, “Oh we’re back, we love him” to “I hope the baby comes out lookin’ like….” It was like, “Whoa, whoa, calm down!” It jumped to another level in a matter of minutes.

You’ve been in this dude’s head for five years. What’s it like to leave him behind?

I haven’t, it’s really crazy. I feel so fortunate to have experienced this journey with this character and with these folks, but in terms of the character, I feel like there’s so much introspection. I feel like I’ve learned so much from what Lawrence has gone through and I’ve seen friends of mine come to realizations themselves. I’ve even heard stories from random people. I’m in Portland shooting a movie right now and someone ran up on me about two weeks ago and said, “Hey man, me and my girl were going through it.” He related to Lawrence in a way and said that for him, it was Lawrence outside of Issa’s apartment and not texting her in, maybe season three, that made him think: “I never want to be in that place with my girl. I want to be able to send the text and figure it out.”

So to put him down is wild. I’m grateful for it, but I do think this is the right time. I think it’s time for these characters to go off and live their lives, and I think the stories we’ve told with these characters are big, expansive, beautiful, and full of gifts. We’ve gotten to see it from Lawrence on the couch to Lawrence rockin’ a suit and going to work every day, and I think there’s a beautiful journey there. So I’m happy to let him go; I think it’s the right time.

What should people take away from Lawrence?

Don’t be afraid to be vulnerable. Don’t be afraid to experience growth. Not everything can be dealt with through the lens of either anger or happiness. We’re humans, we have a multitude of emotions for a reason and there are words to express all of those emotions. We don’t have to be vindictive when we communicate, so I hope people are able to use his journey as a litmus test and realize they can skip some of the lows and go straight to where they’re happy.

Too often, Insecure is reduced to memes, music, and gender wars. But looking back on the show after five years, I think it’s supposed to be about growth. People aren’t supposed to stay in the same place when they’re at a certain point in adulthood. We’ve seen both Lawrence and Issa go from being down to being up. Even Molly, someone who’s always been successful professionally, doesn’t have her life all the way together. What should people take away from the show as it draws to a close?

My hope is that by the time we get to the finale, everyone sits back and looks at these characters and goes, “Oh, they found security in their insecurities.” But to me, growth is the biggest thing. I feel like Lawrence was a kid who could barely match two socks when we met him, now he’s about to be taking care of another human. It shows how we, as people, are never going to be the same. There are things and people who come in and out of our lives for reasons. They’re going to challenge us, make us want to work harder, frustrate us, make us fall in love, and make us better—and if you just stick to your journey and always take a moment to be honest, I think you just gain so much more from it. I hope that’s the impression these characters ultimately leave on folks.

Even the people who you think have it together. Look at Condola, right? Insecure also gave you the opportunity to get behind the camera. You directed “Lowkey Trippin’,” Molly’s vacation from hell. Tell me about where your interest in directing came from, the challenge of being in the director’s chair, and what you think that could do for your career moving forward. Because I imagine it would only make your bag deeper.

I’m a student, I love learning. And directing is something I’ve always been interested in. Between seasons two, three, and four, I actually took directing classes at UCLA through their extension program. I shadowed on a bunch of shows: Black Monday, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, and Silicon Valley, so I got to be on set a lot. I shadowed Melina [Matsoukas] for the finale of season two, so I spent a lot of time really trying to study. I got like, a billion books about it. Issa actually asked me, “Would you ever direct?” when season two premiered and I was like, “Yeah.”

The opportunity came, and it was obviously easier to direct an episode that I was not in for the entire duration because of the amount of prep that goes into it. I ended up with this Molly-centric episode and Yvonne [Orji] is one of my closest friends, so getting to have her as a muse for two weeks while directing this episode was a luxury. I have such an easy rapport with her: On Wednesday night when I got off work, I called Yvonne when I was driving home and talked to her for an hour. That’s just who we are, so to be able to step into that space with her was a gift in a lot of ways. There are a lot of things about Yvonne that I know and am able to pull out as a director.

It was a challenge, though. We actually shot episode eight, which is the episode with Lawrence and Issa, the week I was preparing to direct my episode, which was filmed in Mexico. That means I was prepping in L.A. Monday through Friday during the day, shooting from 4pm to 4am, then flying down to Mexico two weekends in a row to scout locations. That episode was actually the last one that we shot and it has a lot of daytime in it. My first three days in Mexico were daylight dependent and we shot right at the winter equinox, so it was the three shortest days of the year, meaning it was dark at like, 5pm.

It was a scramble trying to get it all in and make sure that we were really exploring the nuances of certain scenes, especially that fight in the pool. We got in that pool at six o’clock in the morning. That scene was originally supposed to be in a hot tub, but we learned that the hot tub was in an ugly spot when we got down there, so we decided to move it to the pool, which had this beautiful backdrop of the ocean. As neither an actor nor director, did I think about the fact that the pool was going to be cold when we put [the actors] in there. But they fought through it, we pulled them out and had lunch, then they got back in and we finished it. Yvonne ended up getting sick as we moved to the next scene, which is the towel kiosk scene, and she threw up. So in that scene, the coverage of the towel kiosk person is actually the back of Yvonne’s stand-in because she was literally in the bathroom throwing up. Then Yvonne ran out, we turned the camera around, got her coverage—again, after she was just throwing up—then she ran and changed, and we ran out to the beach and got that last shot of her on the beach where she calls Dr. Rhonda.

It was all. Hands. On. Deck. Folks were running: There’s a video that Prentice [Penny], our showrunner, took of me running from the camera to our drone photographer where I’m sprinting up and down the beach while yelling direction at Yvonne as the sun is dipping into the ocean. I had 15 minutes to get multiple takes of that shot. It was wild, but at the same time, I loved it. It’s a challenge I’m grateful for. The harder I have to work, the more I love it. I’m a masochist like that.

Who are some of your favorite directors who have worked on the show?

Prentice, for sure. Melina. Ava [Berkofsy], our director of photography, always killed it. Amy Aniobi, one of our writers, directed and Natasha [Rothwell] directed this year; they were both amazing. Kerry Washington was great. We’ve had a lot of great directors.

Like Lawrence, but under different circumstances, you’ve become a father. What is it like being a new parent during a global health crisis, especially when your career involves a reasonable degree of travel?

It’s been wild, man. I obviously got to be home during the pandemic, which was great, so I got all the firsts. That was absolutely amazing, so I’m very grateful for that, although it happened during this crazy time. I cherish every single moment with my daughter. She’s my life force. As exhausted as I may be after a 13-hour day, I come home and I have to go stand over her crib and watch her sleep. I have to pick her up or play with her. It’s crazy when people say it, but you understand the concept of nothing matters as much as this when you experience it. No matter how tired, hungry, mad, or whatever that you are, looking into her eyes, making her laugh, or hearing her call me “Dada” changes everything. It completely takes you out of the world and puts you in this moment, and that’s been crazy. But you get tired. You want some sleep. You want the first bite; you don’t want to have to feed her first sometimes, but that’s all part of it. I like to think it’s made me a more empathetic and patient person for sure.

You’re in Top Gun: Maverick, which is supposed to finally come out next year. What was it like working with Tom Cruise?

Tom was amazing. He was a mentor, he was a friend, he was a filmmaker, he was a producer, and he was a dude you wanted to grab a drink with. It’s one of the more inspiring moments I’ve ever had in my life. His level of dedication to filmmaking, how much he knows about it, and, more importantly, how much he was willing to share is something I’ll never forget—and I don’t say that lightly. He was so kind and gracious, but at the same time was like, “No, you’re a movie star, so we’re gonna make sure you know certain things and have access to these resources. This is how we’re going to make sure you have everything you need for this movie.”

And then just being there every single day. He could be the tiniest speck in the back of a scene that you were in but he’d still be there. It was never his stand-in. He’d literally just walk through the back of a scene and it’s like, “that’s Tom Cruise.” There’s a billion other things that dude could be doing—he could probably be shooting Mission: Impossible 7 while we’re shooting this movie—but he’s in the background of your scene. It’s just rare to get that from folks, period, but especially to get it from someone who has been one of the biggest movie stars in this industry. I hope that I walk with as much grace and professionalism as he does.