Everyone has their favorite couple on Succession. Some like the balanced love portfolio of Shiv and Tom, others Gerri and her slime puppy Roman–and who could forget Tom and the man who he would castrate and marry in a heartbeat Greg. But me? I prefer the idiosyncratic humor of Karl and Frank—two of Logan Roy’s longer-time henchmen, and for my money, the show’s unsung power couple.
Waystar Royco’s erstwhile Chief Operating Officer Frank Vernon, played by Peter Friedman (whom you might know from projects like High Maintenance, The Affair, and Single White Female), and its Chief Financial Officer Karl Muller, played by David Rasche (Veep, Burn After Reading, In the Loop), are sort of the Frick and Frack of the company. Equal parts hapless and cunning, they fight like an old married couple, and maintain an easy sense of camaraderie.
It turns out that’s not a coincidence—Rasche and Friedman are longtime friends themselves, and rib each other in a way not dissimilar from Karl and Frank. When Rasche logged into our Zoom call, Friedman and I were discussing the menswear on the show. “Dave, what are you wearing today? You’re wearing something very un-Karl,” Friedman joked about Rasche’s overalls and flannel. And more than once Rasche nearly let slip a precious spoiler before being hushed by Friedman. Friedman even prompted Rasche at one point to divulge a funny tidbit about production, which Rasche initially demurred. A few days later I got an email from Rasche asking me to call him; Friedman had convinced him to fill me in on the whole story, which appears below.
I spent an hour chatting with Friedman and Rasche about the comedy of Karl and Frank, their place in the Waystar Royco universe, and whether or not their characters actually like each other.
GQ: I want to dig into the origins of the Karl-Frank dynamic. Is that something that was written intentionally into the show, or something that developed overtime?
David Rasche: Well, my first day on the show, I went to Jesse and I said, “Who am I?” And he said, “Well, you’re a shark.” Right? So there you are. And the sharks, they swim together to corral food that they’ll all eat. And on the other hand, if there’s one last bite, they’ll all fight for it. So the team really is Carl and Hugo and Carolina and Jerry and Frank. I mean, that’s kind of the core team. So if there’s a team, that’s the one that you see, but everybody’s looking for a leg up, no question. Absolutely. We’re all very friendly, and Frank’s kids call me Uncle Karl and all like that. But if it comes down to it…
You’re throwing them overboard. And there’s a real comedic element to Karl and Frank. Talk to me a little bit about that dynamic.
Peter Friedman: I think of David as the comedy member.
DR: Another mistake on Peter’s part. Not at all, not at all. I’ll tell you what it is. They always say when you hire actors who know each other, you get something for free. And I’ve known Peter for a long time. So when we’re on stage, I mean, it’s not like I have to invent something. I mean, I know him. I have known him for a long time. Now, who he is as a person is, I have to say, almost nothing like his character, because he is the kindest, most generous…
PF: [interjecting] And he doesn’t wear suits.
DR: … actor you’ll ever, which is not who his character is. But anyway, that’s part of it, I think, is that you read that automatically because there’s already a relationship.
What about you, Peter? Do you think there’s anything about David that reminds you of Karl?
PF: Oh yeah, it’s the comedic timing. See, David has done solo performing and writing and stuff like that. He’s got a timing that is very, very idiosyncratic and works like crazy in this program.
Peter Friedman as Frank.
Macall Polay / HBOI have “idiosyncratic” in my notes—there’s that moment in episode four when Karl is eating and he covers his mouth, and it just made me laugh. Or in the first episode this season, when they’re boarding the plane and Karl isn’t there because he’s getting a sandwich..
PF: Are you gonna tell Caroline about that? About the passports…
DR: Well in April they said, ‘Well, let’s get our passports together.’ And I looked at my passport and it expired in 2020.
I don’t know if you’ve ever [gotten an expedited passport.] You go to downtown King Street, you show up, you bring your stuff, you give them extra money, you walk away, you come back, and they give you your passport. That’s all, right? There’s nothing to it. Well, not now [during Covid.] So, they said, ‘Well, the shortest lines are in Stamford, Connecticut,’ so we went to Stamford, Connecticut on a Monday morning. The guy comes out and says, ‘Do you have a number?’ I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Well, you have to have a number.’ And I said, ‘Well, I have a letter from HBO and Warner Brothers…’
So, the production company went through hell and they had all these interns calling at midnight, refreshing their page, and they couldn’t get it. So, someone had read in the paper or online or something that you go to your Congressperson, which is Carolyn Maloney. She’s just fabulous. Just a terrific legislator. And so, we called her and they said, ‘Yes, we can.’
So I went to the thing and I got my passport and I got it, but it was too late because I couldn’t get work papers.
So I couldn’t make the scene. That was my worst nightmare. I wrote them and I said, ‘I’m so sorry.’ And they said, ‘Don’t worry. We’ll take care of it.’ And so that’s what they did. That’s what they came up with, which was better. Necessity is the mother of invention. This is an example of how they make lemonade out of a lemon, right? So they took this situation and they said, “Oh, well, let’s do this.” And so, it turned out to be funnier than if I was just sitting there.
God, that’s so funny.
DR: They pulled this knowing that they had put these little nuggets in along the way about Karl always being a little bit peckish and a little hungry and wanting food and always something.
PF: I liked last season, where Roman and Dave and Karl were in Romania. Where were you supposed to be? In Belgrade or some other Eastern Europe in place. And the captors are asking people to raise their hand for some reason. But the camera pans over and he’s got his hand already raised. It was like, nice. Good humor.
And David, you think Peter is really nothing like Frank.
PF: I don’t see it—do you, David?
DR: Oh, come on. Peter is as funny as anybody. He’s his usual modest self. He is absolutely, and funny in the show.
What do you think it is about Karl and Frank that unites them?
DR: Well, I was telling Peter this—the thing about Logan is that you have to kiss his ass. He insists on that. If you don’t kiss his ass, you’re liable to get fired. On the other hand, he hates ass-kissers. So if you kiss his ass, you’re liable to get fired. So everybody is always off balance. I think that’s an apt way to describe the kids at all times.
That’s one of Logan’s geniuses, is he keeps everybody off balance. Nobody quite knows. What’s he going to do? There’s a big what’s he going to do episode and no one ever knows. And he what? He said what? What, since when? And now everybody’s putting out fires and stuff, and it happens all through. So we’re off balance. I mean, it’s scary out there.
There’s that moment in episode 4 when Karl calls Logan and complains about Shiv, and Logan takes his side. That surprised me.
DR: Well you’ve got to remember, I mean, if you think of this organization, Frank is the best CEO. No. What, you’re the COO? And I am the best-
PF: Was, but now I have nothing. You fired me.
DR: I mean, we’re the best in the business. And we’ve known him a long time, Logan, and he depends on us. We know where all the bodies are buried. I think the only way Karl could function is to threaten, and that’s the only thing that he understands, when push comes to shove. Logan understands threats because that’s what he does. I mean, he’s not a nice guy, so we can’t say that he kept Karl because he liked him because he was so nice. It was in his best interest to do what he did, and that’s always the way it is.
Who do you think Logan trusts more? Who do you think he respects more? Because I think it’s a different answer for each of them.
DR: Head scratcher. I don’t know. Peter? I don’t know.
PF: Well, I don’t think he trusts me at all, and nor would I.
DR: What was that whole thing with the boar on the floor, about “shall I talk about the women,” or something? He’s got the goods on all of us. He knows our weak spots.
I think he trusts Karl more, but I think he respects Frank a little more.
DR: Wow, that’s interesting.
There’s that moment where he says to Shiv, “Keep an eye on Karl, because he likes to be liked.” And I think Logan doesn’t care about being liked. And I don’t think Frank necessarily cares about being liked very much either.
DR: Well, once again, you have to remember that Frank has been fired and hired back I don’t even know how many times, and once again, it’s in Logan’s best interest. He’s after something. It’s not because he’s like, Frank, I kind of like to have him around. So you may be onto something in terms of respect.
David Rasche as Karl.
Macall Polay / HBOI want to talk a little bit about how Karl and Frank see each other. Peter—what do you think Frank thinks of Karl?
PF: I think he suffers him, but depends on him to take the hit when Frank doesn’t want to, maybe. He knows he’ll get swatted first. I rarely stick my neck out and when I do, I get slapped. I’ll take care of this and Logan says, “Nope, get out of here.” But I know that Karl might do that first.
DR: Well, I mean, another part of things is that, I mean, I can’t speak for Peter, but my sense of Karl has always been that despite everything else, there is a very deep and intense loyalty to Logan. I know which side my bread is buttered on, but over and above that, I always feel like a protector—don’t get near him because I’ll kill you.
PF: Wow.
DR: Of course, despite the fact that we’re not members of the family, trying to please daddy is always [the priority.]
PF: Are we trying to please daddy?
DR: I’m saying we’re not the kids, but I mean, that’s always part of the element. I guess I think that Frank is more vulnerable to Logan’s shots. He takes more shots at Frank.
Do you think Karl and Frank like each other?
DR: My answer is yes, but he could say something else.
PF: Would we go out for a drink together, do you think?
DR: I would say yes, definitely, because we spend a lot of time together. We go to a lot of places together. We eat together a lot. We know each other’s families. I mean this has been, what, 20 years? I don’t know how long they figure it, but it’s a very long time, through thick and thin. If you look at that scene on the airplane that you referenced before, I mean, that’s two people who are communicating on a very deep level, with very few words, and everybody knows exactly what the other person is saying. That’s two people who have a connection that they’re able to communicate that way.
PF: In their professional sphere. But I think outside of that, I don’t know that I’d seek Karl out.
DR: You’re making a mistake. You’re making a mistake. Karl’s a great guy.
I think that that speaks so much to who they are as characters, though, because Karl does have this—I don’t want to use the phrase puppy dog, but he does seem like he’d be like, “We could go out to dinner. That would be good.” Frank has that hardness to him where he’s like, “No, I don’t want to go out with you.”
DR: If I have to, I will.
What do you think it is that endears viewers to Karl and Frank?
DR: Well, it could be the eye of the beholder. I would… Wait, go ahead. I’ll think of something. Who am I thinking of? Go ahead. Peter, go.
PF: It’s not being heard, not being taken seriously. Maybe that’s what we respond to.
DR: The underdog. Right, well, some actor said they asked him what he was thinking during a certain scene, and he said, “Nothing. I’ll let the audience do that.”
PF: Wait, we leave you alone, and that’s what you come up with?
I personally think it’s because these are two guys who clearly have had to be shrewd to get to where they are, but they have these comedic idiosyncrasies that make them appealing. There are moments with all the Roy kids, I think, where they come off as a little repellent. You’re like, “Ugh.” And there’s something about Karl and Frank where I, at least, never feel that way towards them
PF: As many times as Frank’s been fired, he’s come back, and they’re awful people. So he’s not some angel walking back in, is he? But I’ve never seen him with an axe in his hand.
That’s it right there. What do you think sets Karl and Frank apart from the Roy kids in the Waystar Royco context?
DR: Part of it is this off-balance thing. They live in a world in which they’re never not going to be a child of Logan Roy. Right? They will always be that. So there is a comfort and a kind of a false sense of ability to act with impunity, because “What are you going to do to me? He’s still my dad, I’m still in here. So, we wait.”
But we are not that.
PF: Well, we earned our way in, and they didn’t, and who would he trust more? Who would Logan trust more for a certain response: the kid, or the person who knows really what’s going on?